I know what Anarchists are, which is why I said one day you will grow out of it.
No I won’t lmao. Been going strong for ~15 years, and the older I get and the more I learn about the world and the more I experience life, the more I believe that anarchism is the best framework for analyzing and synthesizing a society that’s good for everyone.
As long as you abide by the laws and systems of the things you “advocate against” you are nothing more than a hypocrite like all other Anarchists.
By that logic, I should start murdering and killing random civilians because it’s in opposition to the law. Of course not! Not literally all laws are completely wrong. But I 1000% do not give a fuck about the letter of the law for the things I actually want to do.
If your idea of Anarchy is “Everyone works together to get stuff done without violence inherent in the state and the inequalities of capitalism” we have a name for that and it is called “Socialism”.
Yes exactly, that’s why some people use the term libertarian socialism to describe anarchism and its relatives! (Notice the little “l”; I obviously condemn the “Libertarian” Party and right-wing “Libertarians”.) I will happily identify as a socialist, but “anarchist” is a bit more precise.
The rest of your talking points are directly answered in the Anarchist FAQ previously linked, and they did a much better job than I possibly could.
But let’s get back to where we started. I am no fan of America even though I live here. As an anarchist, I am painfully aware of and vocal about how evil an entity America is. You don’t need to be an anarchist to come to that conclusion, but I brought it up only because it’s sufficient to come to the conclusion that America is evil (if not necessary). But more importantly: just because I live in America does not mean I have no right to vent.
And I would be a lot more quiet if you were from Palestine or Iran or one of the various countries America has bombed into the stone age, or even from the inner city or one of the reservations inside the US. I could absolutely sympathize with them being rude to me. I’d agree with them and take it. I’m an anarchist, and I’m accustomed to reading material written with a confrontational tone; half our modern anarchist literature is just people yelling at the reader 😆.
But you’re from Canada. Canada is just as complicit as the United States in the vast majority of the suffering we inflict on the world. And y’all are just as shitty to your indigenous population as we are.
And I’ve been noticing a distinctly…pro-Canada stance in your recent comment history…
If Americans have nothing to be proud of …WHICH WE DO NOT… AMERICANS HAVE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF …then Canadians have almost nothing to be proud of. Yeah your healthcare system and social services are slightly less shit for white people, but Canada is still a settler-colonialist, capitalist, racist project that needs to be abolished.
Like if I should feel bad for living in America, then by taking your logic to its logical conclusion YOU should be ashamed about living in Canada.
Which you shouldn’t. You were born there or were brought there. It’s not your fault.
And to be completely clear: I reject national pride overall. National pride is for people who have nothing real to be proud of.
By that logic, I should start murdering and killing random civilians because it’s in opposition to the law. Of course not! Not literally all laws are completely wrong. But I 1000% do not give a fuck about the letter of the law for the things I actually want to do.
By that logic, you aren’t the only person in the world and a not so small amount of people are all about that life.
And I would be a lot more quiet if you were from Palestine or Iran or one of the various countries America has bombed into the stone age, or even from the inner city or one of the reservations inside the US. I could absolutely sympathize with them being rude to me. I’d agree with them and take it. I’m an anarchist, and I’m accustomed to reading material written with a confrontational tone; half our modern anarchist literature is just people yelling at the reader
A racist Anarchist? Well I never!
But you’re from Canada. Canada is just as complicit as the United States in the vast majority of the suffering we inflict on the world. And y’all are just as shitty to your indigenous population as we are.
And I’ve been noticing a distinctly…pro-Canada stance in your recent comment history…
Canada has much to be ashamed of, and much more to be proud of. We most certainly do not treat our Indigenous population like you do. We also do a lot of good around the world. There is a reason why we have so many allies.
I am not ashamed to be Canadian, and I am proud to be Canadian. I am also proud of being Greek. Regardless of the history of both.
If Americans have nothing to be proud of …WHICH WE DO NOT… AMERICANS HAVE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF …then Canadians have almost nothing to be proud of. Yeah your healthcare system and social services are slightly less shit for white people, but Canada is still a settler-colonialist, capitalist, racist project that needs to be abolished.
We have much to be proud of in Canada. Feel free to explain how one “abolishes” a country full of people born and raised here from all over the world.
Like if I should feel bad for living in America, then by taking your logic to its logical conclusion YOU should be ashamed about living in Canada.
Which you shouldn’t. You were born there or were brought there. It’s not your fault.
I choose to live here because I like my country. I am proud of that choice. Just like you choose to live in the US and play pretend freedom fighter.
And to be completely clear: I reject national pride overall. National pride is for people who have nothing real to be proud of.
To be completely clear: Obviously, “Anarchist”. That is exactly what people say when they have nothing to be proud of in their country.
By that logic, you aren’t the only person in the world and a not so small amount of people are all about that life.
…you seriously think a lot of people are interested in murdering random people? That it’s the existence of the State that keeps people from just being serial killers? Nah.
If the numberless facts which can be brought forward to support this view are taken into account, we may safely say that mutual aid is as much a law of animal life as mutual struggle, but that, as a factor of evolution, it most probably has a far greater importance, inasmuch as it favours the development of such habits and characters as insure the maintenance and further development of the species, together with the greatest amount of welfare and enjoyment of life for the individual, with the least waste of energy.
I.e. sure you’re going to get some serial killers and anarchist societies will have to account for them, but the vast majority of people are good enough.
A racist Anarchist? Well I never!
What are you smoking and can I have some?!?
Acknowledging the very real reality that people from Iran and Palestine are more likely to be in a rough state of mind because they’re currently being fucking bombed into oblivion is not fucking racism. Similarly, people living in the inner city or on reservations who are constantly being kicked in the teeth by the system at every step of their lives might are more likely to be in a rough state of mind than I am in my relatively privileged position.
Acknowledging my privilege relative to them is not fucking racist.
We have much to be proud of in Canada.
Yo my sister lived in Canada for several years. She has indigenous descent and she faced so much fucking racism for even looking First Nations.
Feel free to explain how one “abolishes” a country full of people born and raised here from all over the world.
Abolish the State through a diversity of tactics including peaceful protest, nonviolent and violent direct action, and mass mobilization. Convince people (like you) to also break their mental chains (like attachment to your nation). Establish alternative, prefigurative systems in opposition to hierarchy and domination with built-in safeguards to ensure consent of the community these systems serve.
I am not ashamed to be Canadian, and I am proud to be Canadian.
Okay the only people who should be ashamed of their country are people who are currently proud of it. If you need to feel shame to break this chain then please do.
Regardless of the history of both.
Really? Because… that’s kinda important!
We also do a lot of good around the world.
No Canada does not. Canada is in lockstep with America, providing material support for the War on Terror and complicity in the Gaza Genocide, just to name a few.
There is a reason why we have so many allies.
Because Canada is in lockstep with America and the Canadian government has competent diplomats. Also… America has a lot of allies! That’s not a good measure of how beneficial a country is to the world.
I choose to live here because I like my country. I am proud of that choice. Just like you choose to live in the US and play pretend freedom fighter.
Lol I absolutely do not pretend to be a freedom fighter because I’m too tired to fight. But I’d rather be a hypocrite than completely wrong.
And no, I absolutely do not choose to live here. If I left the United States for another country, I would blow through the couple hundred bucks in my bank account (which I don’t even think I can access abroad? My bank will lock my card if I start using it across the country, let alone the world) because I wouldn’t be allowed to get work, then get my ass deported back to the US. At least in the US I have people I can ask for money, and I can get work. Crucially… I’m not gonna dox myself, but I’m working to get the credentials to be able to get the fuck out of here and into almost any country in a way that is sustainable.
To be completely clear: Obviously, “Anarchist”. That is exactly what people say when they have nothing to be proud of in their country.
No lol. Americans are unfortunately super proud of their country. Patriotism gets more fashionable as things get worse.
But also: in my view, there’s nothing to be proud of in any country. Pride in your community? Pride in your culture? Subculture? Heritage? Family? Friends? Your own achievements? Sure thing! But the “nation” is a falsehood organized around the State, run by your local warlords in service of capitalism.
Definitionally, I believe that no one should be proud of their nation. Definitionally, nationalism is bad. I literally don’t care about what quality of life you lead in that nation, because without the violence of the State and the capitalists it serves, you and your neighbors would be better off without the State.
Yeah I actually am thirsty to know what specifically made you think I’m bigoted. We can agree to disagree about everything else but being called a bigot is pretty serious 😳
A bigot is a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes others based on their beliefs, race, or religion, often refusing to accept different ideas or groups. This term is commonly used to describe someone who holds prejudiced views.
Now that you know what the word means, try some self reflection.
Yeah and I haven’t done any of those things. I made a pretty clear distinction between the subjects under a government and the government itself, i.e. people who live in Canada/America/wherever vs the Canadian/America/wherever government.
If hating the Canadian government is bigotry then bigotry is a toothless concept that needs to be dispensed with…but obviously, hating the Canadian government is not bigotry. It’s an emotional continuation of a principled objection to all nations rooted in the anarchist tradition of anti-nationalist libertarian socialism. Hating the cultural institutions invented by the Canadian government isn’t bigotry either. Again, it is an emotional continuation of a principled objection to nationalism, in particular the cultural assimilation
Actually, my argument is closer to “it is bigotry NOT to reject national governments and their cultural assimilation.” Because these national governments assimilate whatever cultures they can distill into something acceptable for capitalism, and brutally destroy anyone who can’t or won’t be assimilated. THAT is bigotry.
Like there’s this distinct sense that you came into this conversation to dunk on “dumb Americans” for being a “big dumb patriot in dumb USA why don’t you just leave” and you didn’t expect to be dealing to someone to your left because literally everyone in America is a conservative no exceptions allowed and literally no one is paying attention. Pay no mind to the LA anti-ICE protests and even the shitlib-controlled No Kings protests where about 1% of the population turned up (which is actually huge for protests!).
And since you’re usually dunking on Americans, who often are actual bigots, as a Canadian in a marginally less shit society, your brain goes “Yeah this dude is American so he must be a bigot, call him a bigot, that’ll show him.”
You aren’t debating me. You’re dunking on this abstract idea of a generic American but writing it in prose with the length and cadence of a serious debate.
And to be clear: I love dunking on my fellow Americans. I really do. We need to be put in our fucking place from time to time…all the fucking time really.
What I don’t appreciate is debating under false pretenses. It was really that first remark about racism where I knew what this conversation was: you were debating the generic American, not me, because it’s obvious to anyone with a pulse that I had said nothing even remotely racist or controversial in the snippet you quoted.
Like you have every right to be mad at America and Americans but maybe don’t dunk on Americans when they’re trying to express their disdain for the things you claim to be against. Like I 1000% support an America boycott, not coming to America, not working with Americans, fuck us and fuck all our shit, but you gotta understand that 100% purely perfect boycotting of America is not possible for people who were born here. It’s not even a remotely controversial position. To deny this is to deny material reality.
People accuse anarchists of black and white thinking but it’s you who’s thinking in black and white, specifically that it is easy for all Americans to leave America and that anymore who doesn’t leave wants to be here and agrees with all or even any of the oppression that the US government has planned for the world.
And usually I don’t keep hammering people like this but…come on…I know you’re a debate lord. You’re usually on the other side of this interaction…so it’s a chance to understand how it feels to be on the other side. (And also maybe I have important shit to do that I’m too anxious to do right now 😆.)
And you started all this over an extremely tame joke which, while literally going against the literal text of your first comment, clearly does not show support for the American empire or even diminish the correct anti-American critique you started with. I even gave you an out in the second comment where you could have said nothing or been like “well maybe I was a bit harsh”.
All of this say: even if you were right, you’re kind of being a jerk in your comment history. Not just to me, but to basically everyone you’ve interacted with lately. Not saying you are a jerk because I don’t know you, but you’re being a jerk. And if I wasn’t such an insufferable jerk myself, I would have probably just told you that directly and moved on with my life. Game recognizes game 😆.
Yeah I have lotsa bullshit to reflect on because I’m an extremely flawed human. Again, my post/comment history proves I have a lot of shit to work on, and I don’t pretend otherwise. Now you know that you do too.
No I won’t lmao. Been going strong for ~15 years, and the older I get and the more I learn about the world and the more I experience life, the more I believe that anarchism is the best framework for analyzing and synthesizing a society that’s good for everyone.
By that logic, I should start murdering and killing random civilians because it’s in opposition to the law. Of course not! Not literally all laws are completely wrong. But I 1000% do not give a fuck about the letter of the law for the things I actually want to do.
Yes exactly, that’s why some people use the term libertarian socialism to describe anarchism and its relatives! (Notice the little “l”; I obviously condemn the “Libertarian” Party and right-wing “Libertarians”.) I will happily identify as a socialist, but “anarchist” is a bit more precise.
The rest of your talking points are directly answered in the Anarchist FAQ previously linked, and they did a much better job than I possibly could.
But let’s get back to where we started. I am no fan of America even though I live here. As an anarchist, I am painfully aware of and vocal about how evil an entity America is. You don’t need to be an anarchist to come to that conclusion, but I brought it up only because it’s sufficient to come to the conclusion that America is evil (if not necessary). But more importantly: just because I live in America does not mean I have no right to vent.
And I would be a lot more quiet if you were from Palestine or Iran or one of the various countries America has bombed into the stone age, or even from the inner city or one of the reservations inside the US. I could absolutely sympathize with them being rude to me. I’d agree with them and take it. I’m an anarchist, and I’m accustomed to reading material written with a confrontational tone; half our modern anarchist literature is just people yelling at the reader 😆.
But you’re from Canada. Canada is just as complicit as the United States in the vast majority of the suffering we inflict on the world. And y’all are just as shitty to your indigenous population as we are.
And I’ve been noticing a distinctly…pro-Canada stance in your recent comment history…
If Americans have nothing to be proud of …WHICH WE DO NOT… AMERICANS HAVE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF …then Canadians have almost nothing to be proud of. Yeah your healthcare system and social services are slightly less shit for white people, but Canada is still a settler-colonialist, capitalist, racist project that needs to be abolished.
Like if I should feel bad for living in America, then by taking your logic to its logical conclusion YOU should be ashamed about living in Canada.
Which you shouldn’t. You were born there or were brought there. It’s not your fault.
And to be completely clear: I reject national pride overall. National pride is for people who have nothing real to be proud of.
By that logic, you aren’t the only person in the world and a not so small amount of people are all about that life.
A racist Anarchist? Well I never!
Canada has much to be ashamed of, and much more to be proud of. We most certainly do not treat our Indigenous population like you do. We also do a lot of good around the world. There is a reason why we have so many allies.
I am not ashamed to be Canadian, and I am proud to be Canadian. I am also proud of being Greek. Regardless of the history of both.
We have much to be proud of in Canada. Feel free to explain how one “abolishes” a country full of people born and raised here from all over the world.
I choose to live here because I like my country. I am proud of that choice. Just like you choose to live in the US and play pretend freedom fighter.
To be completely clear: Obviously, “Anarchist”. That is exactly what people say when they have nothing to be proud of in their country.
…you seriously think a lot of people are interested in murdering random people? That it’s the existence of the State that keeps people from just being serial killers? Nah.
Peter Kropotkin, Mutual Aid; A Factor of Evolution
I.e. sure you’re going to get some serial killers and anarchist societies will have to account for them, but the vast majority of people are good enough.
What are you smoking and can I have some?!?
Acknowledging the very real reality that people from Iran and Palestine are more likely to be in a rough state of mind because they’re currently being fucking bombed into oblivion is not fucking racism. Similarly, people living in the inner city or on reservations who are constantly being kicked in the teeth by the system at every step of their lives might are more likely to be in a rough state of mind than I am in my relatively privileged position.
Acknowledging my privilege relative to them is not fucking racist.
Yo my sister lived in Canada for several years. She has indigenous descent and she faced so much fucking racism for even looking First Nations.
Abolish the State through a diversity of tactics including peaceful protest, nonviolent and violent direct action, and mass mobilization. Convince people (like you) to also break their mental chains (like attachment to your nation). Establish alternative, prefigurative systems in opposition to hierarchy and domination with built-in safeguards to ensure consent of the community these systems serve.
Okay the only people who should be ashamed of their country are people who are currently proud of it. If you need to feel shame to break this chain then please do.
Really? Because… that’s kinda important!
No Canada does not. Canada is in lockstep with America, providing material support for the War on Terror and complicity in the Gaza Genocide, just to name a few.
Because Canada is in lockstep with America and the Canadian government has competent diplomats. Also… America has a lot of allies! That’s not a good measure of how beneficial a country is to the world.
Lol I absolutely do not pretend to be a freedom fighter because I’m too tired to fight. But I’d rather be a hypocrite than completely wrong.
And no, I absolutely do not choose to live here. If I left the United States for another country, I would blow through the couple hundred bucks in my bank account (which I don’t even think I can access abroad? My bank will lock my card if I start using it across the country, let alone the world) because I wouldn’t be allowed to get work, then get my ass deported back to the US. At least in the US I have people I can ask for money, and I can get work. Crucially… I’m not gonna dox myself, but I’m working to get the credentials to be able to get the fuck out of here and into almost any country in a way that is sustainable.
No lol. Americans are unfortunately super proud of their country. Patriotism gets more fashionable as things get worse.
But also: in my view, there’s nothing to be proud of in any country. Pride in your community? Pride in your culture? Subculture? Heritage? Family? Friends? Your own achievements? Sure thing! But the “nation” is a falsehood organized around the State, run by your local warlords in service of capitalism.
Definitionally, I believe that no one should be proud of their nation. Definitionally, nationalism is bad. I literally don’t care about what quality of life you lead in that nation, because without the violence of the State and the capitalists it serves, you and your neighbors would be better off without the State.
You are ignorant, bigoted, and not worth further time. Give your head a shake.
Yeah because being anti-nationalist is so bigoted /s
Like seriously I’d like to know so I don’t repeat it: which part of any of my replies is bigoted?
2 comments 6 minutes apart on the same comment. Thirsty much?
Yeah I actually am thirsty to know what specifically made you think I’m bigoted. We can agree to disagree about everything else but being called a bigot is pretty serious 😳
Now that you know what the word means, try some self reflection.
Yeah and I haven’t done any of those things. I made a pretty clear distinction between the subjects under a government and the government itself, i.e. people who live in Canada/America/wherever vs the Canadian/America/wherever government.
If hating the Canadian government is bigotry then bigotry is a toothless concept that needs to be dispensed with…but obviously, hating the Canadian government is not bigotry. It’s an emotional continuation of a principled objection to all nations rooted in the anarchist tradition of anti-nationalist libertarian socialism. Hating the cultural institutions invented by the Canadian government isn’t bigotry either. Again, it is an emotional continuation of a principled objection to nationalism, in particular the cultural assimilation
Actually, my argument is closer to “it is bigotry NOT to reject national governments and their cultural assimilation.” Because these national governments assimilate whatever cultures they can distill into something acceptable for capitalism, and brutally destroy anyone who can’t or won’t be assimilated. THAT is bigotry.
Like there’s this distinct sense that you came into this conversation to dunk on “dumb Americans” for being a “big dumb patriot in dumb USA why don’t you just leave” and you didn’t expect to be dealing to someone to your left because literally everyone in America is a conservative no exceptions allowed and literally no one is paying attention. Pay no mind to the LA anti-ICE protests and even the shitlib-controlled No Kings protests where about 1% of the population turned up (which is actually huge for protests!).
And since you’re usually dunking on Americans, who often are actual bigots, as a Canadian in a marginally less shit society, your brain goes “Yeah this dude is American so he must be a bigot, call him a bigot, that’ll show him.”
You aren’t debating me. You’re dunking on this abstract idea of a generic American but writing it in prose with the length and cadence of a serious debate.
And to be clear: I love dunking on my fellow Americans. I really do. We need to be put in our fucking place from time to time…all the fucking time really.
What I don’t appreciate is debating under false pretenses. It was really that first remark about racism where I knew what this conversation was: you were debating the generic American, not me, because it’s obvious to anyone with a pulse that I had said nothing even remotely racist or controversial in the snippet you quoted.
Like you have every right to be mad at America and Americans but maybe don’t dunk on Americans when they’re trying to express their disdain for the things you claim to be against. Like I 1000% support an America boycott, not coming to America, not working with Americans, fuck us and fuck all our shit, but you gotta understand that 100% purely perfect boycotting of America is not possible for people who were born here. It’s not even a remotely controversial position. To deny this is to deny material reality.
People accuse anarchists of black and white thinking but it’s you who’s thinking in black and white, specifically that it is easy for all Americans to leave America and that anymore who doesn’t leave wants to be here and agrees with all or even any of the oppression that the US government has planned for the world.
And usually I don’t keep hammering people like this but…come on…I know you’re a debate lord. You’re usually on the other side of this interaction…so it’s a chance to understand how it feels to be on the other side. (And also maybe I have important shit to do that I’m too anxious to do right now 😆.)
And you started all this over an extremely tame joke which, while literally going against the literal text of your first comment, clearly does not show support for the American empire or even diminish the correct anti-American critique you started with. I even gave you an out in the second comment where you could have said nothing or been like “well maybe I was a bit harsh”.
All of this say: even if you were right, you’re kind of being a jerk in your comment history. Not just to me, but to basically everyone you’ve interacted with lately. Not saying you are a jerk because I don’t know you, but you’re being a jerk. And if I wasn’t such an insufferable jerk myself, I would have probably just told you that directly and moved on with my life. Game recognizes game 😆.
Yeah I have lotsa bullshit to reflect on because I’m an extremely flawed human. Again, my post/comment history proves I have a lot of shit to work on, and I don’t pretend otherwise. Now you know that you do too.